When you hear that Charlotte Mason doesn’t begin formal lessons in grammar until Form 2, do you think she’s crazy? Or at least wonder why? A young Ms. Mason would’ve agreed with you, but after working with real children, she changed her mind. On today’s podcast, we’re discussing Grammar lessons in the Charlotte Mason method. Join us and find out more.
Listen Now:
Charlotte Mason, Volume 6 (Amazon) (Living Book Press – use code DELECTABLE for 10% off!)
ADE Vol 6, Chapt 10 Reading List
ADE’s Form 2 Grammar Lessons Guide by Mason (updated by Liz Cottrill)
ADE’s Grammar Lessons: A Short Grammar of the English Tongue by Meiklejohn (updated by Jessica Becker)
ADE’s Poetry Scansion Lessons by Jono Kiser
Episode 237: Writing: Grammar and Composition
Emily
Welcome to A Delectable Education, the podcast that spreads the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. I’m Emily Kiser and I’m here with…
Nicole
…Nicole Williams…
Liz
…and Liz Cottrill.
Emily
Charlotte Mason said that we have nothing new in the teaching of Grammar to suggest. But for those of us who are used to Language Arts curriculum and workbooks beginning in kindergarten, the Language Arts progression does seem quite different, not only compared with our own education, but also compared to what all the voices in the homeschool community seem to be saying, right?
Nicole
Mm-hmm.
Emily
Nicole, can you paint the picture for us of how Grammar fits into the whole scope of a child’s education?
Nicole
Absolutely. So in Form 1, so that’s grades one through three, there are no formal Grammar lessons.
Emily
Right.
Nicole
And instead, students are absorbing language naturally through rich reading or being read to, and narration. That was very intentional.
Charlotte Mason tells us Grammar is a logical study. It’s abstract, and it’s, she said, “Uncongenial to young minds who deal best with the concrete.” So at this stage, they read living books, they narrate, they copy passages, they learn poetry, they absorb correct usage while reading and even speaking, like we talked about in our last episode. They’re forming habits of speech and thought, but they’re not studying parts of speech, or analyzing, or parsing, or anything like that.
But then in Form 2, so that’s grades four through six, this is where the formal Grammar begins. And it begins with sentences, not parts of speech. Charlotte Mason made it very clear. She said, “It’s better that the child should begin with the sentence, not with the parts of speech, that he should learn a little of analysis before he learns to parse.” So at this idea, the first ideas that are presented to them are that words go together to make sense.
Emily
Yeah.
Nicole
And they kind of learn that, and then we teach them that a sentence has two parts, that which we speak of and what we say about it. So we’re going to start slow on top of all of that. Then we’ll move to dividing it into subject and predicates, understanding those words. Verbs are introduced, being verbs, and doing words. Exercises that involve prefixes, use of words in multiple grammatical ways, and so we’re still seeing that it’s kind of analysis before parsing. We’re not doing that.
Liz
And it’s all sentence work.
Nicole
Yes. So by the age of 12, we see sections in her volumes that say, “By 12, they should know,” and she said, “They should have a fair knowledge of English grammar,” just through these basic things.
Then in Forms 3 and 4, so this is seventh, eighth, and ninth grade, Grammar continues. But now they’re going to parse more complex sentences, they’re going to analyze poetry, they’re going to work with prefixes and word structure. At this stage, Charlotte Mason said that Grammar functions as one of the disciplinary subjects alongside Math and those kinds of logical subjects. In Volume Three, she says, “Mathematics, grammar, logic, leave the record of intellectual habits in the brain tissue.” So it kind of reminds you why we’re doing this and what kind of lessons these are.
So I would also say that at this point, it’s starting to support composition and translation, which we’re going to talk about in another episode.
And then in Form 5 and 6, so those are your grades 10, 11, and 12, it’s really integrated in the advanced language of studying and writing. At this level, they’re writing papers, they’re translating other languages back and forth from English to that and back again. They’re really reading deeply in both their English language and their foreign language, and the grammar – and even Latin – and the grammar is really helping them with all of that. So it really undergirds everything at this point and isn’t an isolated subject there.
So yeah. That’s the big picture. So she’s putting it off, but she’s taking it very seriously.
And we see that in how she presents it to the children over those years.
Emily
Charlotte Mason also says in Home Education that Grammar, being a study of words and not of things, and that children can’t dream parts of speech, is by no means attractive to the child.
Nicole
No.
Emily
And nor should he be hurried into it. And just like you said, that’s why we don’t see Grammar lessons starting in Form 1, and it’s one of those areas we have come to really trust what she says. We’ve seen it play out in our own children. And actually, I have to tell you, my own students who have begun the study of grammar, that is their favorite subject of the week, which can any of us say that?
Nicole
Right.
Emily
My husband, maybe.
So weekly in Form 2, there are two very short, 15-minute lessons a week for the study of Grammar. So they’re just slowly working through…it’s a little bite. And what you said about the logic. They’re always seeing words in sentences, which English needs to be…it’s where we put words in the sentence that depend upon its meaning, right? Our words don’t change like in Latin to give that meaning. And so they’re having to deduce always what they’re saying.
In Form 3, they have, again, twice a week, but these lessons are longer. They’re 30 minutes this time. So they’re actually getting quite a bit of time to work out even more detailed analysis and using their logical reasoning skills.
Form 4 cuts back to just once a week for 30 minutes. By now, they have got five years of Grammar under their belt. Grammar is a finite study.
Nicole
Right.
Emily
We use it all the time, but there’s only so much we need to know about it, so they cut it back a little bit. And then Form 5 and 6, we don’t see a subject called English Grammar on their schedules. Instead, it is English Language, and grammar is wrapped up into a lot of other things, such as word study, like learning the etymology of words, and also some reading and writing instruction. So it becomes part of that subject. So like you said, it’s all integrated and interwoven. And they do have two 30-minute lessons a week for that subject.
So as far as the individual lessons go, there’s really not a single format that a lesson has to take, but there are some common ideas. So the new idea is presented orally. Grammar is primarily an oral lesson. There’s practice, just like we do in Math, where they get to actually bring their powers of reasoning to exercises in looking at different sentences.
Liz
And by that, what you’re saying is the teacher instructs a little more than in most subjects.
Emily
Correct in Charlotte Mason we don’t have a book that’s doing the teaching at this point.
Liz
She’s explaining.
Emily
Yep. And then you can actually see some really good sample lessons in Volume One on pages 296 to 300. Charlotte Mason lays out a couple of different lessons herself. So the child then is introduced to the topic, gets to play around with it, work through it, and then he applies his new knowledge by creating sentences himself that use that part of speech, and he’s coming up with.
So it’s really taking his knowledge and owning it, I think.
So as he progresses, he identifies the grammar concepts that are in his actual school book. Whatever grammar idea he’s working on in his lessons, he’s looking in his actual school books for those. So it’s not a removed, isolated, compartmentalized subject, but is integrated into the very books that he’s reading and narrating and writing from. So you can see just this beautiful cohesion of this subject.
Nicole
Even just the fact that a lot of times we worry about changing to written narration, and we talk about how that transition happens, but the importance of when they’re older, still maintaining that oral narration and that they are using, how do I say this?
Emily
Different sentence structures. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
So he analyzes example sentences, and he works through the logic of what each word’s place is in that sentence, expanding and kind of adding to the knowledge that he’s gained.
Also in Form 3, they do a formal study of Scansion, which is the grammar of poetry, which is different. It’s the rhythm and meter and breaking words into syllables and foot patterns and rhyme schemes. So that is another facet of Grammar that happens.
Liz
In Form 3.
Emily
In Form 3 and up, mm-hmm. Yes.
So our objectives for our Grammar lessons are to increase their reasoning powers and their logic. Primarily, it’s not just to become better English speakers, right? It’s really honing their ability to reason. And then, of course, we do want to increase their knowledge of English grammar at the same time.
So our teacher prep for Grammar lessons is really just to look over the next lesson and wrap our minds around it. Maybe you’re like me and never had formal Grammar instruction and you’re really fuzzy on what participles are. Or whatever it is. So make sure you understand, since this is an oral lesson, that you’re presenting the idea. Thankfully, we do have some resources to recommend I’ll tell you about in a minute.
But another part of our prep is maybe they need more practice on a thing, so we’re looking over their school books that they’re using and just choosing out a couple of passages that they may need to work from.
So we at ADE have two of the resources that Charlotte Mason used, but we’ve updated them and included answer keys, which is, I think, essential for those of us who did not have study. So Liz herself redid Charlotte Mason’s own First Grammar Lessons, and that is our Form 2 Grammar Resource that we sell on the website, and you can find a link for that in the show notes.
And then once that is finished, completed, and the child has had lots of practice identifying those parts of speech in their school books as well, and writing their own sentences, then they can move on to “The Short Grammar of the English Tongue” by Meiklejohn, and we have two years of that resource. Which may take your child more than two years to complete because, of course, Grammar is one of those studies that Charlotte Mason said there must be no gaps in the child’s knowledge. We have to move at their own pace of understanding, and that is perfectly fine.
And then my husband, Jono, actually, has written us a Scansion manual for those of us who’ve never studied, let alone English Grammar, the grammar of poetry, and he has done additional exercises as well once your students have worked through that. So if you are lost completely on the word “scansion”, we have some–
Nicole
What’s that word even mean?
Emily
Yeah. Yeah. We have resources for you as well.
So Mom, do you want to tell us some common questions that you hear, or just considerations we need to make and think about as we place our children in Grammar lessons?
Liz
Yeah. I think some of us get a bit into a cold sweat, just like teaching Math. And probably the most common thing I hear is that I never learned it myself. And I just am here to tell you that when I was going through school, millennia ago, they were in a phase where Grammar was not taught at all. I knew what a sentence was, and I might have known a noun and a verb, but I knew no particularities at all. And when I had to do my college entrance tests, I think I did the ACT, when my scores came back, I almost had a perfect score in Grammar, which just floored me. But my counselor, she’s like, “Well, that’s not surprising. You know how to read.” So I really encourage you that if you’re a reader, this will make sense to you. It’s just putting names to things.
Emily
Much like in nature study, right? They’re familiar.
Liz
I was just going to say that.
Emily
Oh, you were going to say the same thing.
Liz
Yeah. That’s fine. You go ahead.
Emily
Just like we are familiar with by watching and looking at plants and animals.
Liz
Right.
Emily
And then later, we just gently introduce them to, Oh, that’s a stamen, and that’s a pistil, or the inflorescence or whatever.
Liz
So naming comes after experiencing things and knowing about them. And your child has had amazing grammar since childhood. And when you think about how much it takes to learn a language, to realize that from babyhood to, say, kindergarten, their grammar has improved tremendously over that time, and it’s just from using it. So there’s such a practical thing about grammar. We all know the right way things are. Maybe we get stuck sometimes and say things incorrectly, but we know it isn’t right.
So anyway, and that is another common thing moms just say, “I don’t understand it. It makes no sense to me.” I just want to encourage you that if you start with your fourth grader, and even if you have an older child, but they’ve not had grammar, you just start at the beginning, just like with Math and several other subjects. You’ll learn right alongside of them, and you will be having many aha moments. It will make much more sense.
A lot of moms are scared if their children ask them complicated questions that they don’t know the answer to because they’re not adept. And I’ll just say, in this day and age of instant answers, it’s not hard to Google and find out. But there are the handbooks for English Grammar, and they’re really helpful.
Emily
And also, experts don’t always agree, right?
Liz
Well, that is a-
Emily
There is sometimes not just one right answer in Grammar, and a child can make a case for a logical reason why this word is such a thing, and they can be right.
Liz
And like so many other things in life, some terms have changed. You might have called this a clause, and now they call it, I’m making this up, but they might call it a different name, like section or something. The names for adverbs and certain types of parts of speech have changed a bit. So yeah, it’s a living subject because our language changes too.
Moms often have the question, if their child isn’t reading yet, should they begin Grammar? And I usually do recommend holding off if they’re not reading at all. You could do some oral lessons and begin to give them the ideas of what a complete sentence is and how to even detect the subject and the verb in a sentence without them being able to read, but you will have to do it with them, which isn’t too hard in Form 2 because the lessons are short, and there’s just a couple every week. But you might delay until the child has more confidence at reading. And then some children, because they’re slower to get to read, they write slower, and they can’t always write all their exercises. It is fine for them to tell those to you.
Emily
Absolutely.
Liz
I had a son with learning disabilities, and he got through all of Charlotte Mason’s early grammar lessons, all four parts, and never wrote one sentence because he couldn’t do it.
Anyway, if you guys can think of some others, that’d be great. I just want to encourage you that with all the living books they’ve read, as Nicole pointed out, they are hearing beautiful grammar usage, and it will come out. It has come out in their narrations. It’ll come out in their writing, and they will understand it. And honestly, there’s no need to panic about all the parts of speech being nailed down because really, at the end of Form 2, she just wanted them to know subject, verb, and object of a sentence.
And like Emily said, looking in sentences in books can help. And just the principles that she gives you of saying to yourself, What is this sentence about? And then, What are we saying about it? will help you through even some complicated sentences in their history or their novel or something.
Emily
I think one thing that we hear, or the one common concern or query that we get all the time is, Can I combine my kids in this subject? And we would say, just like Math, Grammar, because there needs to be no gaps for the most part, unless you have two children who are in the same grade level and have the same understanding, you’re going to need to probably do these individually.
Liz
And they might be in the same book. One’s just beginning, and the other one’s a ways through it, and they could have their lesson at the same time because the older student by then is probably able to do most of their lessons on their own.
Emily
We hope you’ve gained more clarity on Charlotte Mason grammar lessons after today’s discussion. Next week, we’ll be talking about learning languages apart from our mother tongue. In the meantime, please check out the show notes for links to the resources that we mentioned in this episode, including our previous episode on Grammar, number 237. We hope you’ll join us next week as we continue to spread the feast of the Charlotte Mason method.